S4E04: O, Fortuna! David W. Collins of The Soundtrack Show
On today’s episode of In Unison, we’re chatting with David W. Collins. We first became acquainted with David through his own podcast, The Soundtrack Show, where he takes a look at film scores and soundtracks from some of the most popular movies, TV shows, video games and theater pieces of all time, including some of the best choral soundtracks!
And now a word from our hosts!
Music excerpts
“Te Deum Guarani,” by Ennio Morricone, from the film The Mission
“Duel of the Fates,” by John Wiliams, from the film Star Wars: Episode I - The Phantom Menace
“The Ice Dance,” by Danny Elfman, from the film Edward Scissorhands
“Dry Your Tears, Afrika,” by John Williams, from the film Amistad
Episode references
Theme Song: Mr. Puffy by Avi Bortnik, arr. by Paul Kim. Performed by Dynamic
Episode Transcript
Intro [00:00:04] Hello! And welcome to In Unison, the podcast about new choral music and the conductors, composers and choristers who create it. We are your hosts: I am Zane Fiala, Artistic Director of the International Orange Chorale of San Francisco, and I'm Giacomo DiGrigoli, a tenor in IOCSF, the Golden Gate Men's Chorus and the San Francisco Symphony Chorus. And this is In Unison. (I like being in unison!)
Zane [00:00:35] On today's episode of In Unison, we're chatting with David W. Collins. Giacomo and I first became acquainted with David through his own podcast, The Soundtrack Show, where he takes a look at film scores and soundtracks from some of the most popular movies, TV shows, video games and theater pieces of all time. We highly recommend you go and check out David's show. But just as a teaser, here's a snippet of one of his earliest episodes discussing how great melodies tell great stories.
Podcast Excerpt [00:01:04] "We're going to talk about music and break down just two famous melodies by composer John Williams, perhaps the most famous living composer in the world. I want to play you a very famous melody just right off the top and use it as an example of musical storytelling. I'm pretty sure all of you will know this as soon as you hear it. Let's take a listen. [Music excerpt: the brass fanfare from the movie Star Wars is played.] What is it about that main theme from a musical perspective that puts us right in a place as an audience where we're expecting heroic greatness. You can hear [plays four ascending notes on the piano] the presentation of the hero, [plays a higher note on the piano] the crossing of the threshold, [plays three descending notes on the piano] the gathering strength or series of ordeals, maybe the loss of a mentor, [plays the highest notes in the series] and the huge achievement... then you know, reassurance of the goal, he repeats it and then the awards ceremony, [plays the final four notes in the melody] the denouement. The melody itself contains the hero's journey, the melody is the hero's journey.
Podcast Excerpt [00:02:22] "Now stay with me here, because I want to play another theme for you by John Williams that also tells a story, but a very different one. [Music excerpt: the main theme from the movie Indiana Jones is played.] I would put to us that this is a very, very different melody. It's still, you still feel the heroism here, right? You still feel that it feels great. But you know this... [plays the theme from Star Wars on the piano] is very different than a walk up [plays the theme from Indiana Jones]. Indiana Jones as a character is very different. He is always in over his head against insurmountable odds and ahh.... and he, and he only gets by with his wits and his cunning. And it's not easy, right [plays the first four notes of Indiana Jones theme on piano]? In fact, sometimes he takes a few shots [plays the next three notes from Indiana Jones theme], right? But he pushes and pushes and pushes and tries even harder [plays the next four notes from Indiana Jones theme], right? And eventually he gets there, but it takes huge effort [continues the melody on piano]... and the story goes on, you get it again. And then you get this really out of character chord in this, in this scale, and this chord really represents danger - just out of nowhere you get [plays the next few notes, ending with a chord that seems unsettled]. You know, and then finally, the... you get the way home [plays and concludes the melody on piano]. Great composers are great storytellers and great melodies tell great stories."
Zane [00:04:09] Joining us today on In Unison is David W. Collins and David is the host of The Soundtrack Show, a podcast that discusses film scores and soundtracks for movies, TV shows, video games and theater pieces. And both Giacomo and I are huge fans of the show.
Giacomo [00:04:26] Woohoo...
Zane [00:04:26] Today, we're mostly going to be talking about choral music in movie soundtracks. But first, let's find out a little bit more about David. David is a voice actor, sound designer, writer, mixer and composer with an extensive background in theater, music and post-production. Most of his professional career involves work on the Star Wars franchise, where he started at Skywalker Sound in the 90s. He worked on dozens of Star Wars video games during his time with LucasArts and more recently has lent his voice to several of the new Star Wars movies, as well as some pretty big name video games such as the Uncharted series and God of War. David is currently a supervising sound editor, sound designer and re-recording mixer at Skywalker Sound, where he just recently completed 16 episodes of "Star Wars: The Bad Batch" for Disney Plus. David is an alum of Berklee College of Music in Boston and has won several awards for his work in sound design and composition. In 2011, David was nominated for a Writers Guild Award for his work on "Star Wars: the Force Unleashed II". David, thanks so much for joining us today! We are really, really excited to chat with you.
David [00:05:37] Thanks so much for having me! Now, I have to live up to whoever that guy was that you were describing, because it certainly doesn't feel like me [laughter from Zane]. It just sounds like some... [laughter] So I'm like, "Well, did I do that? Well, I guess maybe I did at one point." But, you know, the entertainment industry, it's... It's such a wild ride. And sometimes you work on something for a week at it - or even for hours as a voice actor and it sounds so impressive on your resume [laughter]. But it just comes and goes, you know - racking up the credits. But anyway, thank you for having me on this podcast! I'm really excited to talk about choral music. It's something that I really love.
Giacomo [00:06:11] David, we're psyched to have you. As Zane mentioned, we're huge fans of your podcast, The Soundtrack Show, and we've gotten to sort of know you through the show. But let's get our listeners on In Unison to get to know you a little bit better, more informally with an icebreaker.
David [00:06:24] Sure!
Giacomo [00:06:25] So tell us, David, if you could score any movie - historical, new by genre, by specific director you might want to work with or a writer - what movie would it be and why?
David [00:06:37] Oh, wow... Umm, you know, probably something in the sci-fi/fantasy genre, which is not a big surprise. It's a surprise to no one that I would say something like that [laughter from Giacomo]. You know, I really grew up at that time when, you know, Star Wars and Raiders of the Lost Ark and E.T. and Goonies and Gremlins and, you know, all of those movies in the early 80s made such a huge impression on me. And that was really a time where, you know, what they call sort of that neoclassical movement in film scoring was happening with John Williams and even Jerry Goldsmith and Alan Silvestri and all of those great composers. And that really is kind of something that I default to. And when I got into college, I was really... I suddenly was taken with people like umm... you know, Carl Orff and Igor Stravinsky and people that reminded me of film scores. So to me, that was sort of like, if you had to crystallize what a film score was, it was something like John Williams' score for E.T. or Star Wars.
David [00:07:32] And obviously, I also really love the score for "Fletch", though, you know [laughter from Giacomo] and Top Gun, you know. Like, I love synth scores. I love Wendy Carlos' score for Tron. I love all kinds of different genres. But the one that, that I think sort of was an awakening for me musically was umm... was that sort of big orchestral sound in the late 19th century, you know, the John Williams "Star Wars" and what, you know, Korngold and Max Steiner did for like "Casablanca" or "Robin Hood", things like that, you know? Those are sort of the great big lush sounds that I became really enamored with in my 20s - and probably before that, actually, as a kid.
Zane [00:08:14] I want to talk a little bit about Skywalker Sound, since that's where you're at now. And that's kind of where you...
David [00:08:18] Sure.
Zane [00:08:19] ... you got going in the 90s. You know, I remember back when I first started my choir... started singing in my choir, a bunch of the singers that were in the group were involved with some recording projects at Skywalker Ranch, I believe. So, is that where the studio is now? Is there a studio there and a studio in SoCal? Like, tell us a little bit more about Skywalker Sound.
David [00:08:43] Yes. Skywalker Sound is the, the main facilities are at Skywalker Ranch, which is in Marin County, and there is a scoring stage there. And that's where I started out of Berklee College of Music. I started as an intern there in 1999. And we did, I did assist on some choral recording projects. I think one of them was Chanticleer?
Zane [00:09:04] Oh, yeah.
David [00:09:05] ... I did. And, and that was really, really fun. But yeah, there is a giant scoring stage there where you can record full orchestras. In fact, my first week was - right out of school - was setting up and then just kind of being an assistant on hand to do whatever; whether it's help, you know, run pages out to music stands or move a microphone a little bit over to the left on a top of a timpani or to make somebody coffee. I did all of those things on John Debney's score for Inspector Gadget, you know the Matthew Broderick movie from 1999. That was my first week out of, out of college - well, my first professional work week out of college, you know, as an intern. And that's under the music director, Director of Scoring and Music Recording at Skywalker Sound. Her name is Leslie Ann Jones. She's an incredible recording engineer. She worked at Capitol Records before she started working at Skywalker. And I think 1997 is when she moved up. And her father was Spike Jones, the famous musical satirist that, you know, did all those incredible comedy records and, you know, tremendous musical, our musicianship in those albums as well. But she just has just an amazing ear, just enormous talent.
David [00:10:20] And so, she brought in a lot of classical recordings, choral recordings and film scores as well. So, that was a wonderful place to start out as an intern. I was way over my head. I remember that [laughter]... at the time, just being like, "Oh, my God, I don't know what I'm doing." But, you know, I just went with it and I soaked up everything I possibly could and learned so much. But, I was still very much an assistant. And so it wasn't full time work all the time.
David [00:10:50] And so after a while, when a full time position opened up in video games, I interviewed for it. And because I had entered at Skywalker and, you know, I was still carrying the beeper back in 1999 to 2000 [laughter from Zane] that they gave me when they would, they would page me to see if I could work that day. I also interned at The Plant in Sausalito. I was doing all kinds of stuff that year. I was teaching, you know, guitar lessons. I think I was just doing anything I could to kind of eke out rent. And then I got a job at LucasArts in 2000 doing sound design, some music editing, but mostly sound design and dialogue mixing for video games...
Zane [00:11:29] Wow.
David [00:11:29] ... starting in 2000. Yeah.
Zane [00:11:30] What was your degree from Berklee?
David [00:11:32] Well, that's funny. I didn't get a degree from Berklee. I got my degree is actually from Whitworth College, which is now Whitworth University in Spokane, Washington, and it was a double major in theater and music. I went to Berklee rather than getting a master's degree. I thought, "Well, I want to go to Berklee. It's always been a dream of mine." And they had a really great music production and engineering program and music synthesis and all this technology stuff. And having played in bands, I'd been in and out of recording studios, even the choral CD's that I did in college. You know, I was always interested in where they're placing the microphones and, you know, the sound that they got.
David [00:12:06] And so I moved to Boston and, you know, it was strange. I was taking all these production classes, but I was also taking or conducting classes because I was interested. And then I was also taking drum lessons, you know? It was like I was doing all kinds of stuff there and then got my internship because I applied from Berklee, but I never finished Berklee. And there is actually a, an interesting saying that the students had at the time, which is, you know, "It's good luck if you don't finish". It means you got pulled into a career before you could finally graduate because it's such a career driven school.
Zane [00:12:41] Yeah.
David [00:12:41] Not that I don't want to go back and graduate. I think about it every year. But... But anyway, yeah, Berklee, I did for two years. And before I could finish even my professional diploma, I got the internship and I called back and my advisor was like, "Stay there [laughter], stay at the ranch, keep working. You're far better off. You're going to learn more there than you could by coming back and finishing your last semester." So I didn't. But I already had a bachelor's degree, so I decided to just start working and that's what I did.
Giacomo [00:13:10] So, David, when did voice acting start for you?
David [00:13:14] Well, I was a musical theater kid, you know, and I was part of a children's theater network all over California, that, you know, if they didn't have someone my age, 14 or 15, to play whatever it was, Rooster in "Annie" or Kenickie in "Grease" or "The Music Man" or "West Side Story", I mean, you name it, all of those musicals that we were doing in high school and community theater, I would I would fly in and play the role, like whether it was in L.A. or San Diego or, you know, Solano, Napa counties, whatever, in Northern California.
David [00:13:48] And so, we traveled a lot and did musicals. And so, I was acting a lot. That's what I always wanted to be, was an actor. And when I got to college, music was really starting to take over my brain in a lot of strange ways. So, I was doing my theater major - it was going well. I was in plays and all that, and I started my first music theory class. This must have been the fall of '94. And the teacher went around the room and asked us, you know, our name and what our major was, and when I said I was a theater major, he kind of looked over his glasses and was like, "Ah, that's OK, we let them in here, too. Ha-ha-ha" - sort of thing [laughter from Giacomo and Zane]. And I was like, "Come on man!" And... but two weeks later I was, I was drilling the class in his absence because it just... I found out that I was better at that than anything else, at ear training, you know. We're filling out four-part chorales and for whatever reason, you know, I was able to pick out all four voices in the first week and just be like, "Oh, it's like this, you know, and SATB, you know." And you're learning all about voice leading and all of that sort of historical stuff. And, I fell in love with it. And it was like someone calling out my name. I just heard it and I just went with it. And slowly it just took over everything. I was in a choir. I was singing. We had six rehearsals a week. We sang every day for five day... you know, five days a week from noon to one. But then we also had sectional practice on Monday nights and, like, it was a 90 piece choir and fell in love with that sound.
David [00:15:23] We also went over in... My freshman year, I was 18 years old, we went over to the opera house, Spokane Symphony/Opera House, and became part of the chorale for "Carmina Burana". And I remember being in the chorale for "Carmina Burana" at age 18 and watching the uniform bowing [imitates the string section by singing a fast excerpt from "Carmina Burana"]. And I was, I just - my brain exploded and from there, music started to take over until I was at LucasArts working on video games and the acting kind of snuck back in. So, you know, when you're working on video games, you have a script. A lot of times the script is in service of gameplay. You know, you have all these different characters. Designers are contributing to the script - level designers, but also animators, programmers, you know, trying to flesh out the artificial intelligence that you interact with in a video game, bla bla, bla, bla.
David [00:16:14] So before they go out and cast and record actors and spend the money, they would have people around the studio read it and they put it in and try it out in the game. So an email goes out, "Hey, would you... Would you be interested in... Anyone that's interested, you know, contact this person to maybe read some characters (a scratch dialog, they called it) to go into our games." And I said, "Yeah, I'm interested!".
David [00:16:34] And that started a snowball of just reading all the time for them until some alien characters popped up at a game called "Knights of the Old Republic". And the director at the time said, "I don't have anyone that does weird voices like that". And he got me into the union and that led to an agent. And then that led to me being in almost every Star Wars game, but then auditioning for all this other stuff and eventually led to an agent in L.A. when I moved down here in L.A. and certainly the rest is history. It just kind of... your true self comes out whether you like it or not, you know. You're... all of your passion, your background, if you just are open and open to all possibilities and just kind of put yourself out there, that just kind of happened as a result of being in a building.
Giacomo [00:17:19] So, you're saying my career as a supermodel, I can still keep my fingers crossed...
David [00:17:22] Yes!
Giacomo [00:17:22] My true self will come out.
David [00:17:24] Yes!
Giacomo [00:17:25] Great. Good to know. [laughter]
David [00:17:26] That... that's...
Giacomo [00:17:27] I'll keep hope alive.
David [00:17:28] That... That "Jaws"... That "Jaws" shirt is a stunning look [laughter from Giacomo]. I encourage you to keep it up always!
Zane [00:17:36] Let's listen to a little bit of David's voice acting work. Here he is portraying the character Castor in the 2013 video game, "God of War: Ascension".
Video Game Excerpt [00:17:48] "You!... You there! You are now charged with the task of completing the statutes. [As you wish.] We hope your work is better than that of your friend here. We can no longer stand the sight of you. You make us sick! Worthless lot, pathetic - every last one of them! Place your offerings for Aletheia. We will decide if they're worthy at our will. [I offer nothing!] You presume to seek audience with the Oracle and yet you bring no offerings. Bold... stupid but bold. Although you must have good reason to seek the oracle carrying such a marvel. Return when you have brought appropriate sacrifice. [I have come to see the Oracle. And that is what I intend to do.] I would have liked to hear your story, warrior. It is a shame you fail to see reason. Remove him!"
Giacomo [00:19:14] David, I want to jump in to a little bit... Something what you just, that you just mentioned when you were discussing your favorite soundtracks or something you might do, which is this notion of the neoclassical period of movie soundtracks. And listening to your show, one of the things that's interesting is you kind of go through the last, the history of the last few decades of soundtracks. Can you tell us a little bit about how movie soundtracks have evolved over the last few decades?
David [00:19:41] Sure! Yeah, I mean I can tell you what I know about it and what I've read from the real scholars. You know, one of the disclaimers I give on my show is that I'm not a Ph.D. in... in ahhh. You know, I don't have a Ph.D. in film scoring. And there are incredible books by, like, Greg Neumeyer and Emelio Audissino and Frank Lehman. There are these really, really incredible authors out there that I read and then I talk about excitedly on my show.
David [00:20:04] But my understanding of it, you know, especially after reading Emilio Audissino's book on John Williams' film music is this idea of the neoclassical label comes from John Williams' resurgence of that kind of film score - starting with "Jaws", you know, and that string of blockbusters that he had - really, I think in no small part, thanks to Steven Spielberg, you know, and his influence and his love for that kind of music. But, you know, it was a return to that golden age of Hollywood, of the 1930s and '40s where people like Alfred Newman and Franz Waxman and I guess, yeah, Korngold and Max Steiner and so many others were writing these film scores that sounded a lot like 19th century romantic music, you know. It sounded a lot like what Johann Strauss was doing, Richard Strauss or Verdi or Faulkner or whatever - Brahms. And, that sound became popular again in the late 70s, mid to late 70s, and the early 80s.
David [00:21:11] Fast forward to now to answer your question. Someone once wrote, you know, "If the 80s and 90s were the age of Williams, we are now prominently in the age of Zimmer, Hans Zimmer." And what's interesting about that, though, is that I feel like Hans Zimmer has had multiple phases of film scoring in his career. And the phase that he is in now, that I find so breathtaking, is this sort of tension with synthesizers, the synth based, tonal based score that he does. Obviously, there's the big power chords or something like "Man of Steel", the big [imitates a big, dense chord], that stuff. But what I find really compelling is stuff like "Dunkirk" or "Blade Runner" or "Interstellar", those kind of things, you know, which is very different than what he did say on "Gladiator" back in 2000 or even "The Lion King" back in 1993 or "Power of One". He's had so many different eras of his, of his film scoring. But what he's doing now is so much more based in tone and texture and tension, as opposed to expressing these long legato melodies and using leitmotif. Not that those don't exist because you still find leitmotifs. You still find themes in film scores.
David [00:22:25] But this is my opinion, it takes feet and frames of footage to express a long legato melody, and movies move much quicker, much more quickly than they did, you know, 20, 30, 40 years ago. And so, it's harder to express melodies. You know, you get melodic fragments, but it's much easier to express texture and tone than it is to say, "Give these big melodic, sweeping phrases to characters." That might be part of it. There's probably a million reasons why it's changed. But I think that, you know, people like Hans Zimmer have really changed things in that regard and that it's much more tonal and textural and still works. I mean, in fact, it's, it's innovative.
Zane [00:23:09] So, you obviously are very enthusiastic about soundtracks, which is fantastic because I am too. And earlier you mentioned having sung in choirs in college. And so, how would you say that your experiences with choral music helped shape your interest in music soundtracks?
David [00:23:30] I would say, and this is why I was so excited to do your podcast - you know when, when I first heard of it - that choral music really is some of the most spiritual experiences I've ever had musically... ever. More than jam... you know, playing in bands and cranking it up and, you know, sort of like teenage experiences of rock and roll. I mean, those were really formative. But I mean, when you are in a choir with so many other people - I mean, my freshman year we had, we were a 92-voice choir. It was a huge, huge choir. It went down about 75, 80 the following year because we toured.
David [00:24:14] But when you have that many voices singing with no sort of instrumentation around it - it's just pure a cappella. So you're not, you don't have any sort of well tempered cheats. It's just pure, you know, overtones ringing in your head. That changed everything for me. That combined with doing Carmina Burana and being like, "Oh, wait a minute, this is the film score to, to Excalibur and Glory and every film score, every film score trailer in the 90s ever!" You know, all of those, all of these things sort of combined really made me fall in love with music that was more than just say whatever rock was on the radio or you know, I was also studying jazz at the time. But choral music opened me up to so many different possibilities in music. And really, it's kind of a gateway to film scores because of something like Carmina Burana or, you know, I also sang Beethoven's Ninth. You know, and that fourth movement is just, it's just so cool - not just the... not just the chorale, but also the soloists, you know, and understanding sort of the breaking down of tradition and what they're actually saying in the text, you know, about about doing something completely joyous in the concert hall and actually having the gall to to make something that diatonic and pure, you know, in Beethoven's Ninth.
David [00:25:39] I mean, those, those... Those sounds stick with you in a way I think that that, I don't know, sort of harnesses certain emotions that pure instrumental music doesn't - maybe that's just my take on it. But the human voice is so powerful and there is a - no matter whether you consider yourself a spiritual person or not, you know - there is something about the human spirit that comes out when you hear that sound. And maybe, it's a maybe, it's a community thing. Maybe it's, you know, it goes back to the Greeks and the idea of a Greek chorus, especially in soundtracks. I mean, that to me is - and we can talk about sort of the dramatic implications of that as well. But the idea of a Greek chorus is as old as, you know, Sophocles and Euripides. And when you suddenly add that to a film score, it actually dramatically changes your movie. I think the same is true when you add it to a piece of symphonic music, you know, it adds a layer of humanity to it that really resonates with me. So in a lot of ways, it's the gateway to film scores for me, historically.
Giacomo [00:26:39] Let's talk about a few of those, actually, because it's true. Like what you're saying about choirs as just being a completely different instrument. And just, you know, when you think about a film soundtrack and, you know, certain instruments will connote, you know, certain imagery to you. Right? Like everyone thinks of the Jaws soundtrack and you think of that deep bass and the cello sound, you know, like if you have a very instant idea in mind. What are some examples for you of, like, the best uses of choral music in film soundtracks? Like what is it about choral music, the intersection of choral music and soundtracks that is really appealing to you?
David [00:27:14] Ahh... even beyond choral music, even just vocals in film soundtracks can be incredibly powerful. They are a very bold choice. I think that's one of the first things that appeals to me, because if you decide to use the human voice in your music, you are making a choice to enter a realm of dialogue, clarity and dramatic clarity. So, your intent has to be crystal clear. Just to back up about something I said earlier about Steven Spielberg, for example, I think the person who has had the biggest impact on film scores over the last 40 to almost 50 years is not John Williams. It's not George Lucas. It's actually Steven Spielberg.
Giacomo [00:27:55] Hmm.
David [00:27:55] Because in order for a film score to actually have the impact that the great ones have, the director is really, really involved in that. I mean, if you think about Steven Spielberg - and I will get to choral music in a second, I promise - he's the one that heard "The Cowboys" score and "The Reivers" score and said, "Who's this John Williams guy? I want to work with him in Sugarland Express and in Jaws." And then said to George Lucas, "You really need to use John Williams for your Star Wars thing." And then he brought him in on "Raiders of the Lost Ark" and "Close Encounters" and, of course, "E.T." And then, that's how the Salkinds found him for "Superman". And then, of course, now Amblin's established and Zemeckis comes along and he brings up Sylvester and he really pushes Sylvester to redo his score to make it better, kind of like John Williams. He pushes Dave Grusin on "Goonies." This is a guy that brought classical film scoring back. And there are choral elements to that.
David [00:28:44] But when I say that the director is... The point is that a director really has to allow for such a bold choice to be made. You know, if you think of the binary sunset in Star Wars, that's a great John Williams moment. It's one of his most famous moments, but that is a George Lucas design moment because like I said, it takes feet and frames of footage or seconds to express a melody that long, that fully, that, you know, has to be done in the editing room and way before film composer even comes on, which is very different than say, you know, what Mozart did or what Wagner or Verdi did. They were, they were in charge of everything. Well, a film composer is part of a team, and that team has to have a similar vision. And, oftentimes, the film... actually the job of the film composer is to realize the director's vision. And if the director has a musical vision, then you're going to be able to have your musical vision.
David [00:29:32] So all that being said, using chorus, using the human voice in your soundtrack - you've got to have sign-off from the director, you've got to have, you've got to have space to do it that's very clear. You know, like, I'm trying to think of some great examples of a film score. We were talking about "The Mission" earlier, and that's actually not one that I know in terms of whether or not that was Morricone's idea or whether or not that was the director's idea. But I am, I'm assuming it was the director's idea because of how much diegetic singing is in that movie. And so, you have this wonderful blend of sort of the ideal that the missionaries are going for and the sort of, you know, in terms of teaching the sort of Western choral music versus what, you know, is happening on the ground there in South America, you know, and then... But also you have these wonderful, like South American rhythms happening at the same time, you know, like they'll be doing this sort of very straight 4/4, you know, but then you'll also suddenly hear this percussion come in. It's like [imitates percussion with his voice], you know, you hear this wonderful South American rhythm happening. And the combination of those two is a very powerful musical symbol for what's happening in the movie, you know, and then you also hear this chorus come on top of it. And like...
David [00:31:04] That is to me what makes that movie, you know [laughter]. Like that, that is such a bold, bold, bold choice. And it worked. You know what I mean? And I think that's why I like it, is that it calls attention to itself, but that means that you can't do it that often. And when you are doing it, you're doing it for a very specific reason that is very score-forward or score-centric. And as a music fan, of course, I'm drawn to that.
Giacomo [00:31:30] It does when I think of "The Mission", when I think of Ennio Morricone score for that, and you're right, there are certain pieces of that that are integral to the storytelling, right? Like, I forget what the pieces are, but I didn't realize that he had written pieces that sound like 18th and 19th century Western hymns.
David [00:31:48] Yeah.
Giacomo [00:31:48] That are just being performed in this, in this setting. And that's actually really tremendous. And that feels like it totally makes sense, right?
David [00:31:54] Yeah.
Giacomo [00:31:54] Where you're like, "Oh, of course, it's these missionaries and they're, you know, singing this music that sounds like this." But to see it all... original pieces like that being written for, for film scores is pretty amazing.
Zane [00:32:03] Let's listen to some of that diegetic music from "The Mission". Here's "Te Deum Guaraní" from Ennio Morricone's soundtrack from that iconic film. [00:32:14] [Music excerpt: a chorus of possibly untrained voices sing the "Te Deum" text, accompanied by a simple woodwind instrument - possibly a flute.]
Giacomo [00:33:00] I'm trying to think of other pieces, like even more recent examples that you mentioned, like we were talking about the score to "Get Out", right?
David [00:33:08] Yes. Yes.
Giacomo [00:33:08] Some of those opening choral pieces that are all written in... I think they're written in Swahili. I forget the name of the piece, but like...
David [00:33:14] Yeah.
Giacomo [00:33:14] ... You're right. Tell me a little bit about what excites you about that score when you think of the choral music in it.
David [00:33:21] Well, so what excited me about that, first of all, is that it's unlike any horror movie I'd really heard. I mean, you can think about maybe "The Omen" or some of these other... There are pieces that have great, sort of, gothic or very scary music or even voices in it. But this one just seems so unexpected to me and... But perfect. And again, as a drama nerd, it is absolutely, you know, the ancient idea of a Greek chorus. You know, I forget the name of it, too. You know, I could look it up. But basically, Michael Abels is, you know... his score has this choral opening over the opening credits and the closing of it, which is this Swahili choir that is very dissonant but also beautifully melodic minor at the same time, you know, basically saying "Get out". But they don't say it like that. I forget exactly what the Swahili was. But when I read about that, it was something like, "listen to your ancestors". It's a warning. It's a warning about, you know... you're hearing the hundreds of years of oppression that is almost like ghosts singing to him.
David [00:34:29] So, suddenly you have these characters that are in the movie that are not in the movie, but they are because of the film score. That's exciting to me, you know, because you're like, "Oh, there is a community singing to this young man before he enters this situation." And then, there's kind of a bit of a "told you so" at the end, you know. [laughter from Zane] A little bit about, "Yeah, yeah. Now, this is our experience as well." You know, that I just found so, so innovative, innovative, you know. Not just Michael Abels, the composer, but Jordan Peele. And to see, to hear that kind of music in a, in a modern, in a modern horror movie was really exciting to me. That's why I really loved that score.
Giacomo [00:35:08] Yeah, you mentioned you mentioned another example, and it sort of brought up a thought for me, which is it's a very specific tool and it's a very bold choice, which means sometimes that choices, those choices are made and maybe it doesn't go right [laughs]. And, you know, one of the thoughts... I mean, I think you've talked about this in the show, too. But like, you know, I think Mozart's "Dies irae" here is one of the most, like, overused. You're like, "Oh, no, someone's spilled something on her dress." And then it's like "Dies irae". It's not that dramatic, you know.
David [00:35:35] [laughter] In a commercial or something.
Giacomo [00:35:36] Yeah. Yeah. It's like... It's like, "Why is this...", you know. And I'm just wondering if there are examples like that that jump out to you. Like, I think of, it's funny you mentioned "The Omen" that I think of that like tricycle scene in "The Omen" and it's like all this music and these shrieking choirs. And it's like, "Is this is all of that actually happening?" I mean, I don't know. Are there examples for you where you, where you think of like, "Uhh... maybe that's a bit much" or pieces that you hear a lot that you're like, "Uhh... you really do have to be a little more judicious in your, in your use of choral music in the soundtrack."
David [00:36:05] Yeah. I mean it's... I don't hear that much choral music nowadays. I mean, I do go back and watch, you know, watch some things and think, "Boy, it would be great to get a different, different piece than what's in there." But part of that is just because things don't age... and things age differently, you know, starting with what Carl Stalling did on Looney Tunes, you know, there are things that you can't do with classical music anymore that you could a hundred years ago, you know. But you certainly can't hear any of Wagner's Ring Cycle without thinking "kill the wabbit" [laughter from Giacomo]. You can't think of Handel's Hallelujah Chorus without thinking of a soap commercial or, you know, like "look at the stain remover!", you know, because music becomes cliché. So, yeah, there is a danger of things becoming cliché, you know.
David [00:36:55] I generally don't like to ever go negative on the show. So, it's hard for me to say, you know, things that are negative about it because I want the show to be uplifting. I do think, though, that sometimes, you know, certain needle drop cues... they don't have the dramatic effect that the director was hoping and and I wonder to myself if that's just because of the bias that I'm bringing into the theater. I remember seeing, what was it? The, uhh, "The Watchmen", you know, and hearing, and hearing “Sound of Silence.” And it didn't resonate with me, you know. I was like, "But, you know, I don't feel the way I think that this is supposed to be, that's what the intention is." You know, it's supposed to make me feel this kind of nostalgia and put me in the period. And I didn't feel that. For some reason that I did with, say, "Forrest Gump" when they put me in the 60s, but I'm not with this. I just wasn't quite buying it, you know. That happens sometimes. And a lot of it is the bias that we bring into the studio.
David [00:37:54] And I'll tell you one thing I've learned about working on Star Wars is depending on what age you are, your biases, your bias is incredibly different. One of the movies that I told you guys I'm really interested in talking about is The Phantom Menace, because it's one of those movies that people of a certain age dismissed immediately. And since I've been working in Star Wars fan conventions, I can tell you it's one of the most beloved movies that Star Wars fans have, especially if you were a kid when it came out. And now as an adult, I look at Phantom Menace and Return of the Jedi and go, "Well, they kind of have similar... they kind of have a similar tone to them in terms of the balance of humor versus drama." So your own personal bias plays a huge role in how you perceive certain things. And certainly in my show, I go back and look at stuff that historically is, you know, at best dated, at its worst offensive, because of how our culture has changed. And you just sort of take it for where, you know, as a reflection of culture at the time and provide as much context as you can, because it's really important to understand what was happening at the time and how progressive this movie might have been, even though right now it looks incredibly, incredibly regressive and in 2021.
David [00:39:10] But the same is true with music. You know, something that is completely dull to us could be fresh to ears 20 years from now, you know, as far as things cycle out and come in and out of fashion. But yeah, it's a really interesting topic to dive into. I don't know if you want me to talk about the Phantom Menace, but I think it's one of John Williams' greatest Star Wars works of all time, regardless of the tone of the movie. I think wherever he was as a composer at that point was, I mean, just unbelievable. I mean, just cue for cue. It's one of his best soundtracks and his use of choir in that movie is totally inspired. And from my understanding, was his idea, not George Lucas's idea, but it was something that George Lucas loved immediately. And I mean, it's the only time I've ever seen a orchestral piece of music like that in the vein of Carl Orff be on MTV's Total Request Live with Carson Daly. You know [laughter], that never happened before 1999 and John Williams' score for The Phantom Menace. But that happened! And there's a reason, it resonated with people, you know. The sort of balance of light and dark and good and evil. And again, that Greek chorus that those voices of the village throughout the centuries telling you the story I wrote over the campfire, you know. There's something very human about that. That was such a brilliant move. And of course, he revisited it later, two movies later with "Revenge of the Sith". But, yeah, chorus is really powerful when you bust it out and can really, really drive a story point home.
Zane [00:40:45] Let's hear John Williams' inspired use of choral music in the soundtrack of The Phantom Menace, using a Greek chorus of sorts to narrate the balance of light and dark. [00:40:57] [Music excerpt: a chorus sings a prayer like song in Sanskrit, with a surging orchestral accompaniment full of brass flourishes and dramatic, instrumental outbursts.]
Giacomo [00:44:03] So, David, we're going to try something new with you, which is a little bit of the thing called the lightning round on some of these soundtracks, and we'd love to get...
David [00:44:38] Ooh!
Giacomo [00:44:39] ... just a free association - your reactions to a list of some of the most famous and notable choral music and soundtracks. So, free association, whatever comes to mind when we, when we mention these soundtracks. So here we go, Carl Orff, "O Fortuna" from Carmina Burana. The countless places you've seen that.
David [00:44:59] The countless places... I mean, you couldn't walk into a movie theater without hearing that in a trailer, you know, in the 90s. But my first exposure to it was "Excalibur" from 1981, you know. And that, that film score was written around Carmina and Siegfried's March from Twilight of the Gods by Wagner. Even though there are some great original music cues in Excalibur, every big set piece was [singing] "semper crescis". And I heard it again and again and again. It's one of my favorite pieces of classical music. By the way, my favorite recording of that is Herbert Blomstedt's San Francisco Symphony recording and great, great, great piece of music. But I don't think you can use it nowadays. Oh, "Natural Born Killers"... It was everywhere in "Natural Born Killers" and by that time I was like, "OK, we've heard this a lot. I think it's time to put it away so a future generation can find it and appreciate it again."
Giacomo [00:45:47] Again, one more for you, John Barry "Out of Africa.
David [00:45:51] Oh, pass! [laughter] It's been a while! I love John Barry, but... Oh, my God! I haven't seen that in forever.
Giacomo [00:45:59] Pass! How about Harold Arlen for The Wizard of Oz, "Somewhere Over the Rainbow".
David [00:46:04] I think The Wizard of Oz is just an incredible piece of 20th century art in general. I mean, you can't go wrong with that score, with those songs. MGM at, at... not even at its height, but like at the beginning of its, like, incredible golden age of musicals... you know, hit after hit after hit. Everything about The Wizard of Oz is genius for its time. Those songs are timeless and classic. Judy Garland's performance in "Somewhere Over the Rainbow" is incredible, considering her age. There's a reason she's an icon. I love it.
Giacomo [00:46:35] James Horner, Titanic.
David [00:46:37] I was a sucker for Titanic when it came out. And part of it is, I mean, you want to talk about diatonic film scores, you know, and that Lydian lift, if you're... sorry to go to music theory. But obviously, let's say you're in the key of C and you're rocking between the leading tone and the tonic and then you hit that four chord and you're still rocking between the leading tone and that tonic - that sort of manipulative, Lydian sound that just pulls at your heartstrings - any suspension, really, in popular music. But in 1997 and 1998, you could not get away from that melody, even if you were in a grocery store or a dentist's office. So obviously, it really permeated the culture. It sold a love story against this historical disaster. The film score's doing a lot of that work along with the two lead actors. So, great film score! I love James Horner. And, of course, you know, big metallic and anvil's going when the thing's sinking, you know, fun film score. But yeah. You’ve got to suspend your disbelief a little bit. Yeah. But yeah. Good, good stuff.
Giacomo [00:47:41] We'll hop around to a couple more. Alexander... Anything Alexandre Desplat. But maybe... The Harry Potter soundtracks, Harry Potter seven and eight.
David [00:47:49] I think, I think he's great. You know, those movies are really dark and, you know... Harry Potter seven and eight, I honestly don't know as well as the Williams stuff or even the stuff that Patrick Doyle did. But I remember just the feeling of dread and him landing the story points perfectly. I thought, what was the water movie that he did?
Giacomo [00:48:16] "The Shape of Water"?
David [00:48:17] "The Shape of Water" was such a great score, too. And, you know, his instrumentation, his use of ahhh... of, you know. Oh, what's that instrument? See, I don't want you guys to cut anything out! I want people to know what I'm reaching for something [laughter from Zane] because I can't remember. It's not a vibraphone he was using. He was using like a water, an aqua phone, I think he was using? And like, he just, there's just something about that, that film score that I found really captivating. I think he's a wonderful composer.
Giacomo [00:48:48] And then last one, because we haven't talked very much about him. Howard Shore, "Lord of the Rings".
David [00:48:55] Oh!... So good. So good. I think "Lord of the Rings". Boy, we could talk about chorus on "Lord of the Rings" for...
Giacomo [00:49:01] Yes, yes, we can.
David [00:49:02] I mean, I did "Fellowship of the Rings". I have been preparing a "Two Towers" episode for sometime in the future. But, you know, there's an incredible, incredible music of the "Lord of the Rings" book that is available out there that you can study and research. And one of the most revealing parts about it is how much attention was paid to the choral pieces, not just the music, but the text. You know, text is another really, really powerful... I mean, we talked about the Swahili in "Get Out". Text is another really powerful layer to choral music and film scores, because you are actually entering the realm, like I said, of script and meaning. And you're becoming literal because you're speaking words. You know, it could be Latin. A lot of times it's nonsense.
David [00:49:47] I have a library, by the way, called Voxos, and there are other sample libraries that you can use in film scoring when you're actually writing music and you can create your own nonsense sentences because that's what most trailers and things are filled with. It's like [singing nonsense syllables], '"doo sa dee la ee sa". It means nothing. It just sounds cool. Right? And I actually think that's such a missed opportunity because in the case of Howard Shore, you've got people singing in both forms of Elvish and dwarvish, you know, and black speech, you know, from Mordor. I mean, that... There is footage of him actually explaining to the orchestra, "Here's what the text means."
David [00:50:23] Like, I mean, he was into it and he was like, "OK, musicians, I know you're getting paid a union wage, but here. You're going to listen to me tell you what this means. And I want to hear it in your playing!" You know, like that... that is so cool. What a... What an amazing, geeky thing to do. I mean, you can put those on and just as a choral music fan... I mean, the Rivendell theme alone is just... It's just so beautiful. I mean, it's like awe and wonder in like four bars of music... Crystalized.
Giacomo [00:50:52] I lied. There's one more. Speaking of crystalize, that's exactly the right word I was going to use for this. But one of my absolute favorite moments from any movie, from any soundtrack would be the ice dance scene from "Edward Scissorhands". So, Danny Elfman.
David [00:51:04] Ohhh, yeah.
Giacomo [00:51:05] I mean speaking of not using any text, but yeah.
David [00:51:09] Danny Elfman and "Edward Scissorhands", in general, has this wonderful... It all goes around this one chord progression, which is this kind of like one major to three minor kind of thing. If I'm remembering correctly, I don't have a piano in front of me, but it has this kind of sadness in it that is just so... It's kind of like a section of "Clair de Lune", you know, that sort of, that sort of one major, three minor thing. And because of that, you're able to sort of, again, drop from the tonic to that leading tone that has this almost like weeping beauty to it. And you set that against the cold world of Edward Scissorhands and his, you know, feeling misunderstood and I mean, being a victim on so many different levels, you know [laughter] - including one of the neighbors trying to molest him. I mean, like what a crazy movie that is if you go back and watch it. But I mean, he really makes that movie special. And the emotion... and is doing so much of the emotional work in that movie. I think Johnny Depp is as well, but he just looks so sad. But man, Danny Elfman really sold that movie. It's a beautiful, beautiful score.
David [00:52:20] I went to some... During COVID, I went to this Magic Mountain, car drive-through thing. This is a silly story for your podcast, but now I'm down a road and I have to tell it! [laughter from Giacomo and Zane] You know, Magic Mountain opened up its doors for you to stay in your car and go through this, like, holiday drive through experience. And there was one section that was completely covered in snow and they were blasting Danny Elfman's score to "Edward Scissorhands". And we must have gone like three times. And every time I just wanted to go for that one section, you know, for the ice dance there. But that's such a beautiful score!
Zane [00:52:51] Just because it's so darn delicious. Let's take a moment and listen to Danny Elfman's brilliant composition, "The Ice Dance" from "Edward Scissorhands". [00:53:01] [Music excerpt: the sound of a mechanical instrument, like a music box, accompanies a chorus - evoking child-like wonder].
Zane [00:54:44] I wanted to pivot back and just retouch on what we were just talking about with text, because as I was, you know, listening to... Or listening to soundtracks in preparation for this conversation, I couldn't help but notice that in a lot of cases, when you hear a choir of voices singing in a soundtrack, often it's to create an effect. It's like, you know, some shrieking soprano sound to make it sound more eerie or it's these deep chanting sounds to, you know, give us the sense of some tribalistic kind of thing going on. And when there is text, at least in the many examples I was listening to, it's often in a foreign language. You know, you just referenced Howard Shore using all these, you know, fantasy languages. But technically, they're not English. And... or we'll hear something in Latin. Typically, Latin is a very common language that you'll hear for the choral music in a soundtrack. Is that always the case? Can you think of some soundtracks where they're singing in English and like where the text of the choral music actually is a part of what we're experiencing as far as the script goes?
David [00:55:58] That's a really interesting question in terms of singing in English. It's really hard to think of any film score where it's done in English. And I think a lot of times that's to, practically speaking, stay away from the dialogue, you know, so that it's almost its own thing. Of course, movies are localized into dozens of languages as well. So, you know, when I'm doing something like "The Bad Batch", I not only deliver the English mix, but I deliver what's called an MNE - music and effect stem. And that goes to every territory all over the world. And they translate and record in different languages. And then they put out the movie, or put out the TV show episode, whatever it is, in their own language. And they're using my music and effects mix, you know, with all the dialogue removed because we do everything discreetly. And then they put out their version. When you have text in a different language, you don't have to worry about localization. Not that you necessarily would have to either if you did something in English. But, you know, if you were then watching it in French, you would have the English vocal happening in the music track.
David [00:57:06] There are cases, though, if you do a movie that's like, say, a "Bohemian Rhapsody" or you do a TV show or one of the characters are singing, you will actually localize that singing. So there it gets a little messy when music actually becomes part of the narrative.
David [00:57:21] So I think, one, there's a practical reason, but there's also, I think just an aesthetic reason, you know. I love, like, diving into the text of things because it's like intellectually geeky. And I love to, I love the sort of, you know, poetic device of it. You know when we talked about the Swahili, we talked about Howard Shore using dwarvish, whatever. But I think if you use a different language, there is sort of a visceral quality to it where you're not distracted by it, but you're able to enhance what's on the screen. Because what's on the screen is the most important thing ever in a film score. You know, you're there to enhance the image, to enhance the story, whether it be music or sound effects. And if you start singing in English, that again needs to be, that would have to be taken into careful consideration, I would think, because suddenly you're competing with a narrative. So, it has to be part of the narrative. So it's usually designed that way.
David [00:58:17] Whereas if I want to throw some choir stabs in my music or whatever, then, then I can do that if it's just, you know, in Latin or some other language or whatever. I'm suddenly thinking of "Deadpool" too, though, [laughter] where... I laughed so hard. I haven't thought about, I haven't thought about this in forever, where there's some character that comes on screen. I've only seen the movie once, but what is it?... Tyler Bates, I think Tyler Bates did the score for that. He starts... If you haven't seen "Deadpool 2", I mean, you know, there's a very R-rated choral section where they start talking about how much this character is kicking ass and will "F" you up and all kinds of stuff. And it is so funny. And it reminds me of this conversation because you realize when the score does that you notice, like, you're gonna, you're going to suddenly be like, "Oh my God, they're singing in English and I'm totally picking up on it." And it's part of the gag, it's part of the joke, you know.
David [00:59:14] I did a video game once that's called "Everybody's Gone to the Rapture". It sounds like, you know, a biblical game. It's not. It's a game about the end of the world and these alien beings taking things over. And Jessica Curry, she was the composer on it. And she wrote this beautiful score for the game. And it was very choral and it was all in English. And she did it that way because it is about the English countryside. It's about a village in the English countryside that ends up being completely obliterated by this alien presence. And you are going there and almost trying to figure out what happened. And so the English is very much a part of the narrative. And that's another reminder to me that if you're going to sing in English, it's a big deal, you know, and it's not something that's going to go unnoticed, I guess, is the point... Long winded, long winded way of saying it.
Zane [01:00:09] As we're starting to kind of wrap things up here, David, maybe you could offer up our listeners, maybe like your top three soundtracks that you recommend that they go out and listen to right away. What are the top three soundtracks that they should go and listen to?
David [01:00:25] For, for chorus or for anything?
Zane [01:00:29] For any... I think for anything. What... Giacomo, should we be more specific? Should we be for chorus?
Giacomo [01:00:32] Yeah. I mean, I felt inspired when we were researching this episode. I mean, I was just like, "God, there's just a universe of great soundtracks out there." And I know that we suddenly were like, "Oh! Remember this one? Remember this one?" And so, I wonder if there are any hidden gems or any that come to the top of your mind that you're like, "Oh, yeah, you go put this on after you listen to this episode.".
Zane [01:00:50] Chorus or otherwise.
David [01:00:52] Yeah, I mean, I would say just purely from a choral standpoint, there are some John Williams cues that people forget about that are incredible. One is from "Empire of the Sun". And I forget I forgot the name of the cue, though, even though we're talking about.
Zane [01:01:09] Is it the "exsultate justi"?
David [01:01:11] Yes! That's what it is. It's that one. And then, of course, there's also from a movie that most people forget about, which is "Amistad".
Giacomo [01:01:19] Mmm-hmm...
David [01:01:19] "Dry Your Tears. Africa" is one of his greatest choral pieces of his entire career. If... go find "Dry Your Tears, Africa". Go listen to it, crank it and, you know, if it doesn't move you down to your core, you know, I would be surprised because every time I hear it, I just go, "Oh, man". And it rocks! That's the other thing. We talked about "The Mission". You know, "The Mission" has, I think it's, I think it's... What's the name of that Mission cue? I think it's "As it is in heaven" or something like that. It's a biblical passage, but "on Earth as it is in heaven" from, from "The mission" has like this incredible mixture of the sort of Afro Cuban beats and the sort of almost Mozart's Requiem-sounding chorale, you know, happening on top of each other in a way that's really inspiring. There's a great, there's a great solo moment, too, in - speaking of Morricone and his score - for "Once Upon a time in the West". I mentioned "Star Wars". Of course, I have to just I think his choral work in "Phantom Menace" and "Revenge of the Sith" is amazing. Other choral work that I'm trying to think of. Check out "Get Out" by Michael Abels. We talked about that... Just that opening track. Yeah. So I think it's "Sikiliza kwa wahenga" is the name of the track where they're singing in Swahili and it's just the coolest horror movie track. Check those out. There's so many film scores... It's almost unfair to to to leave all of them out. I could just sit here and go, "Oh listen to this one and then listen to that one!" But, you know, there's so many. And there are incredible video game scores as well.
David [01:02:55] And it's funny, in my podcast, I talk about wanting to do theater and I am dying to do "West Side Story" and I am dying to do "Hamilton". And there are just so many incredible musical theater scores out there that are worth your time. I mean, incredible singing, incredible chorales. Yeah, that's all I have at the top of my head.
Giacomo [01:03:20] That's awesome. And we've and we've got a pretty lengthy list that you've, that you've provided for us as well that we'll put up on our show notes on our website as well. David, we would love to plug a couple of things going on. I think we certainly... Zane and I are huge fans of your podcast, The Soundtrack Show. So, we definitely want to recommend that everyone should run out and go check that out right after you listen to this and you've listened to a couple of soundtracks. Go check out David's show, The Soundtrack Show.
David [01:03:45] Thank you.
Giacomo [01:03:45] Anything else you've got going on you'd like to tell our folks about?
David [01:03:48] Sure! Yeah, I've been as the sound designer and rerecording mixer working on "Star Wars: the Bad Batch" on Disney Plus, which is a really fun show. And it's actually, for me, kind of a callback to a game that I made years ago at LucasArts called "Star Wars: Republic Commando". And so it's been nice to kind of bookend my career, you know, to date with something that I did, you know, whatever... How many years ago? Fifteen years ago plus.
David [01:04:11] I'm working on a... there's a Star Wars animé that's coming out called "Star Wars Visions". I was the sound designer on a few episodes of that - incredible music in some of those. And that was a collaboration with seven different studios in Japan and a variety of composers. There are some choral elements in it. I can't say more than that, but some incredible choral and vocal elements in those scores.
David [01:04:36] If you have kids, go watch "The Bossbaby: Back in Business" on Netflix. I play the dad, Ted Templeton. I voice him and, you know, bring a lot of my real life adventures with [laughter] my young kids into that, into that every week when we were recording it.
David [01:04:53] Yeah, I do a lot of voiceover and animé. Be sure to check out "The Mandalorian", if you didn't. I voiced a lot of stormtroopers in that [laughter].
Zane [01:05:00] Oh, that's so cool.
David [01:05:01] A lot of "Sir, it's a Mandalorian. Aah!" [laughter from Giacomo and Zane] You know, I think I got shot by Bill Burr, you know, about a dozen times [laughter from Zane] and just a ton of those voices, you know. So that was really fun. And you can follow me on Twitter at "davidwcollins" or on Instagram - it's the same. Go to "soundtrack podcast dot com" or check out The Soundtrack Show anywhere you can get your podcast, Apple Music, Spotify, whatever. I'll be there waiting and hopefully more episodes coming soon. I just got to get my work load off my plate and back to it. But this has been really great talking to you guys about film scores and now I'm super motivated to go back and get out some more episodes.
Zane [01:05:38] Yeah, awesome! Well, I think this has been a really... For me, it's been a fascinating conversation. It's been so great to meet you and to chat with you, especially because I'm such a big fan of your show.
David [01:05:49] Oh, thank you so much.
Zane [01:05:50] Everybody needs to listen to The Soundtrack Show. It is spectacular. I'm... I haven't listened to it in order. I'm kind of bouncing around. I'm right in the middle of the first episode you did on "Empire Strikes Back".
David [01:06:01] Oh, yeah.
Zane [01:06:02] It's been really great. But the "Lord of the Rings" episodes - spectacular! And because that movie for me, I was really, really nerded out on that movie when it first came out and I watched all the behind the scenes, I had the extended DVDs and everything. And a lot of the focus was on the music. And I became fascinated with what Howard Shore had done. And so, anybody out there listening to this, that's into choral music, that isn't as as familiar as David is with the choral music that Howard Shore wrote for "Lord of the Rings", you've got to go and listen to his episodes about that, because they are really, really spectacular.
David [01:06:39] Oh, thank you!
Zane [01:06:39] So, thanks so much for joining us, david! It's been really, really great. We really appreciate your time.
David [01:06:44] Well, thank you, guys. And I'm so thrilled that there's a podcast dedicated to choral music. You know, I can't wait to dive back into your back catalog and listen to more. It's a part of my upbringing that I miss. I miss singing in a choir tremendously. You know, I miss that feeling. It's one of the greatest experiences you could possibly have as your listeners know. And, and so I'm glad you guys are doing what you're doing and it's such an honor to be on.
Zane [01:07:08] Thanks so much, David. It's great.
David [01:07:10] Yeah.
Zane [01:07:11] Let's wrap up today's episode with the piece that David feels is John Williams' greatest choral work ever. One that will move you down to your core. Here is "Dry Your Tears, Africa" from the movie "Amistad". [01:07:28] [Music excerpt: a woman hums a mournful melody to introduce a chorus singing with drums.]
Outro [01:11:44] Thanks for listening to this week's episode of the In Unison podcast. Be sure to check out episode extras and subscribe at inunison podcast Dotcom. You can follow us on all social media @inunisonpod and leave us a review on Apple podcast to let us know what you think.
Chorus Dolores [01:12:01] Interval ear training sessions led by Chorus Dolores, who just can't get the knack of a descending minor seventh.
Credits [01:12:13] In Unison is produced and recorded by Mission: Orange Studios. Our transcripts have been diligently edited by IOCSF member and friend of the pod, Fausto Daos, and our theme music is Mr. Puffy, written by Avi Bortnick, arranged by Paul Kim and performed by the Danish vocal jazz ensemble Dynamic on their debut album, This is Dynamic. Special thanks to Paul Kim for permission. Please be sure to check them out at www.dynamicjazz.dk.